TOPIC: S gear input

S gear input 3 years 9 months ago #12645

Im curious to see what you guys use to drive the input of sgear? here i have a short clip just to show how i drive the input... there is a obvious difference in volume so it was not a "level match" comparison, is just one of many other possible ways to drive the input stage of sgear...

my di audio interface level signal was high but not cliping(10 o'clock)... my guitar volume knob around 7 and tone knobs 7/8 ...strato
i've used a nebula program to drive sgear... to compare the sound you can listen in this order 1 , 1.1, 2 , 2.2...etc...


the amp is the stealer ...first with no drive in all settings 1 flat ...2 push switch on ...3 boost switch on ...4 both push and boost switch on.

the 1 2 3 4 files are without the drive from nebula... the 1.1 2.2 3.3 4.4 with the nebula program driving the input stage of sgear...

the main reason i decided to talk about this is because i think the input stage is very important to get great results and can change the sound completly...

again this is not a better or worst comparison .. let's talk about "driving the input stage - what works best for you? "


:rock out:
1 www.mediafire.com/listen/27bqafo3274g71m/DRIVE+STEALER+ONLY.wav

1.1 www.mediafire.com/listen/wwovsxmcydzzvnj/DRIVE+NB.wav
....................................................................................................................................................

2 www.mediafire.com/listen/6vv7c7s231qg4xj/DRIVE+STEALER+PUSH.wav

2.2 www.mediafire.com/listen/cwxc8tcjcn63hs5/DRIVE+NB+PUSH.wav
.....................................................................................................................................................

3 www.mediafire.com/listen/p35z7sz7qr430zs...VE+STEALER+BOOST.wav

3.3 www.mediafire.com/listen/6dqvtwr1rw3ald2/DRIVE+NB+BOOST.wav
.....................................................................................................................................................

4 www.mediafire.com/listen/3mrz2a19z61c4u4...R+PUSH+AND+BOOST.wav

4.4 www.mediafire.com/listen/q194hkauxvwktnc...B+PUSH+AND+BOOST.wav
.......................................................................................................................................................


what do you guys use ? plugins, pedals, nothing? :unsure:

:gripped:

see ya
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Last edit: 3 years 9 months ago by gabrielscruff.
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S gear input 3 years 9 months ago #12646

Guitar --> NPNG Diehlio DI --> Chandler Germanium or Avedis MA5 --> Avid HD I/O. Pedals maybe, if the sound requires it. Over the years and after extensive tests I've become an input purist and feel strongly that the final tone benefits most from allowing the source signal to remain as pristine as possible before hitting S-Gear. For "effected" tones I begin sculpting the signal after S-Gear.

I also firmly believe that if the final tone is what you've intended then it makes no difference how you get there, and so the "there are no rules" clause remains valid. Everyone has a different idea of perfect tone, so that process will vary. I can only comment on my own, and as that was the question the above process is how I get there. Start with a great guitar, get as much from it as possible, hit the amp, and then begin tinkering digitally.
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S gear input 3 years 9 months ago #12648

I go
guitar -> Lehle Sunday Driver (XLR out) -> "mic" input on MOTU Ultralite AVB interface -> S-Gear

this is working well for me now.

I've been playing with the following for clean sounds
guitar -> Lehle Sunday Driver (XLR out) -> "mic" input on MOTU Ultralite AVB interface -> Studio VTP plugin -> S-Gear (clean sounds)
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S gear input 3 years 9 months ago #12651

I typically use my HD500X using both L and R 1/4" outputs into my interface. This just makes things faster if I decide to go stereo or mono. I also have the Line 6 noise gate on...and have all of those effects available pre S-Gear if wanted.
I normally keep things as dry as possible and either use S-Gear's effects or VSTs post S-Gear.
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S gear input 3 years 9 months ago #12653

happy to see you guys input about input ..lol :lol:
i think the sounds that i can get actually are good to my ears.. but i still have some things to try it out ... and maybe improve the sound

DOUBTS...
- a good DI is better than a hi-z input of audio interface? im not sure about that...

- someone know or can explain how much DB hit a real amp when i plug a stratocaster guitar ( i.e )?

............................................................................................................................................................................
i understand that a lot stuff happen inside a real amp input stage .... and i think sgear really have an amazing input stage but i'm curious to learn more about the tech aspects of real amps to maybe improve the digital side of things...
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S gear input 3 years 9 months ago #12657

It completely depends upon the DI, and the interface, and what you'd consider "better" tone. In most cases, using a DI allows you to run the signal through the input transformer of the preamp, which changes the sound. I happen to prefer that. On the other hand, some interface DIs are routed in such a way, too, though this seems to be more rare. And there are great DIs and bad DIs, just as there are great instrument input stages and bad ones, so it's a matter of bypassing the weakest link.

But sometimes that "bad" input stage encourages something in the tone that might be welcomed. Or, as often happens, it might tame an overly bright tone (and could just as easily dull a tone which doesn't need it).

The key is in experimentation and remembering what effect each device injects into the tone.
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S gear input 3 years 9 months ago #12659

:( i still need some money to buy a good quality di... maybe in the black friday... 2016...lol

by the way i still have this doubt about how much db a strato hit inside a real amp input ... if anyone knows that answer or some explanation it will be nice to hear...

here is another drive input on off situation...

no input drive
www.mediafire.com/listen/99bpc8750xqlcc2/PASSTT+OFF.wav
with input drive
www.mediafire.com/listen/5m2m2cxbrbfyxf1/PASSTT.wav

and here is just the rythm section... just for fun...
www.mediafire.com/listen/tufhlbnklgl3fcv/PASST.wav

the duke rythm and the wayfarer lead

again a little nebula doing the harmonic drive thing... i don't know what happen iside this program but is the input signal from a crancked 1176 compressor driving the input stage of other compressor this one

vintageking.com/ear-660-limiter-comp-amplifier

i think it sounds really good... it give a great creamy tone to the sound... i love it... the rythm part is with the drive to... is a clean sound but have the drive applied the diference is gain staging...
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S gear input 3 years 9 months ago #12660

gabrielscruff wrote:

by the way i still have this doubt about how much db a strato hit inside a real amp input

What do you mean by "db?"
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S gear input 3 years 9 months ago #12661

when you plug a guitar into a audio interface sometimes the best level to hit a amp sim is like -15db .... something like that...

i m curious to know how much db hit a real amp input stage... if there is a standard for this ... specially with a strato type guitar...out of curiosity...
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S gear input 3 years 9 months ago #12662

I wasn't sure if you meant decibels or not. Pickup output is typically measured in mV, and Strats typically have less output than humbuckers (though some single coils can achieve that level) so a little extra help into an amp is often needed via a booster.

With regard to the proper dB into the plugin, though standards have been suggested here and elsewhere I strongly disagree with the existence of such a standard. It might be considered a safe guideline but couldn't be called the ideal level. There are far too many factors involved, and with an interface with built-in pres or a DI you're concerned about the optimum level for the entire input chain, including the performance of those elements, and that level varies between devices.

When it comes to input into a real amp, that again depends upon the desired result. A straight input might be perfect for your clean tone, but if you want something with more edge you might be required to boost. Strat pickups can be too "quiet" for some. My '63 sounds otherworldly but its pickups are certainly not loud and they often need to be boosted on the way in for grungy tones.
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S gear input 3 years 9 months ago #12663

elambo wrote:

I wasn't sure if you meant decibels or not. Pickup output is typically measured in mV, and Strats typically have less output than humbuckers (though some single coils can achieve that level) so a little extra help into an amp is often needed via a booster.

see? im a completly noob... :P yes i mean decibels... im so used to daw metters and "standard" recording workflow...

i don't have a humbucker guitar but my strat is sounding good with a little extra push.... the reason why i decide to invite you folks to talk about the input section is because the input is the "money" section ... if you get it right the ability to control de guitar tone with the volume knob gets even better...

i know sgear already is very well tought from the input to output, but a little extra knowledge can be usefull since is a very close recreation of the real world scenario...

i already read the manual but regarding the Sgear input... there is no problem to clip the sgear input right... not the audio interface
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S gear input 3 years 9 months ago #12665

Yes, Mike had stated that clipping within S-Gear is not an issue. How your DI input level compares to a real amp depends on how it's calibrated. A common standard is -6dB when the clipping indicator flashes, but that's not always the case with every DI. It is with mine, so I assume that it’s 6dB below the clipping level of an average tube guitar preamp. Real guitar preamp values would depend on the headroom of the first tube or transistor used. I don't believe Hi-Z guitar preamps normally have an input transformer. Adding one generally fattens the sound. I often use the Tessla plugin before S-Gear for that kind of fattening effect – still my favorite boost plugin. My DI seems to give roughly the recommended -18dBFS peaks with the input knob halfway up. I can get the clipping LED to light if I really “wail” high on the neck with a neck pickup on, but halfway up is where the SNR is maximized before boosting everything. Assuming it's calibrated like an average guitar preamp input, that should be a good. So, I think you are smart to set your DI input for -15dBFS average peaks. You might possibly get DI input clipping with a solid body guitar and C8 or A8 powered HB's, but I doubt it. You could always recalibrate later if need be. If you like the attack quality where you set the S-Gear input, that's really all that matters.

It's impossible to calibrate everything the same, and it's not necessarily optimal for every guitar in a real guitar preamp anyway. Pickup output drops by about 60% with some loss of lower harmonics at ~2x the distance from the strings. Different string gauges/alloys, as well as pickups and the various combinations produce different output levels. Cable capacitance can make a pickup sound aggressive at a level that would sound more neutral with a different capacitance load. Guitar damping even produces different levels: a hollow Jazz guitar will damp the string vibrations much more than a solid body, as the bridge and top absorb the vibrations. That's partially why the action can be set very low on Jazz guitars. Guitar preamps should really have an input calibration stage for driving the first “official” gain stage, but one can always use an external preamp for that.

I set the S-Gear input different for the dedicated presets for my SC or HB pickups. I set it to +3dB for my HB's, and to +4.6 for my guitar with the Nd-powered Microcoil SC's and my C8 powered SC's, and I engage a +2dB trim preset before S-Gear for my weaker noiseless AlNiCo and C5 SC's. I only have GFS Alnico V HB's, which all seem to have the right attack quality at the +3dB setting – not too crisp or weak. Both HB guitars are semi-hollow with essentially the same gauge/type strings, so they both must have similar outputs. That setup seems to suffice for my 5 guitars. It wouldn't hurt to fine tune the input of each S-Gear track for mixdowns. You might want a more laid back or aggressive attack within a mix.

You can see why it's a good idea to have similar pickup output levels with careful height adjustments on a given guitar. If each pickup on a guitar is very close in output, the lower-harmonic compensation from the lowered inductance plus the larger aperture of two pickups in parallel should keep the loudness about the same, but with some per string upper-harmonic roll off that occurs with a wider aperture. The output increase of 2 pickups in series would then increase lower harmonic output several dB, but the resistance load and natural upper-harmonic roll off should then keep the upper-mids from increasing...if everything is set up in a balanced fashion – the classic standard Fender SC and Gibson HB pickup/pot values with the pre mid-60's ~200pF average cable capacitance value being very good reference points.

I should mention that I did have to turn down the average output level of my presets at one point to keep from clipping my DI, which meant I had to readjust the I/O's of my post S-Gear FX. It's difficult to find a good average output level with guitar amp sounds, because you can have different ranges of gain compression among your presets. I'd say my outputs average -6dBFS peaks for most presets – my most dynamic/cleanest preset peaks being several dBFS lower. My Speaker Dynamics post FX setup limits the peaks even more, so I never seem to have any overs. You should have such a post FX setup to catch stray peaks, especially after post modulation FX. Compressors won't catch the initial portion of the peak, and Brick Wall limiters add latency. Tape and/or circuitry gain compression is the best option I know of to protect from output clipping for real time playing.
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S gear input 3 years 9 months ago #12669

gabrielscruff wrote:

there is no problem to clip the sgear input right... not the audio interface

If it sounds good then it is good. In other words, if the result is pleasing then it's not a problem, even if it's technically clipping. We sometimes hit the red in the exchange between plugins (e.g. drum plugin clipping into the eq, then clipping into the compressor) and there's a sound to that which can be pleasing. My eyes don't like seeing the clip indicators on the meters but my ears win that battle.

As you said, clipping the interface's input (the A/D) is less enjoyable.
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S gear input 3 years 8 months ago #12712

:good job: tks for the help guys!

Merry Christmas to you all !!!
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S gear input 3 years 8 months ago #12719

elambo wrote:

--> NPNG Diehlio DI --> Chandler Germanium or Avedis MA5 .
Wow,what a classy preamps. :)

As for later talk in my humble experience digital clippings are not pleasant at all,very uggly digital distortion which is very unmusical.I could not see use of it personally.

Where analog clippings are something to wish for,but as you say its all up to taste and preferences.

I currently using just Korg TP2 very humble instrumental tube preamp compare to your machinery. ;) It has hi z input 1 M ohm thou. I can get good tones from it.

Planning in near future to buy Rupert Neve RNDI 48V DI if I managed to find a dealer for my country,or some store who would ship it worldwide.
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S gear input 3 years 8 months ago #12720

Studiostriver wrote:

As for later talk in my humble experience digital clippings are not pleasant at all,very uggly digital distortion which is very unmusical.I could not see use of it personally.

That's why I was careful to point out that I was referring to *internal* clipping (between plugins) and that overloading the input isn't enjoyable. Nor does the master fader like being overloaded.
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S gear input 3 years 8 months ago #12726

elambo wrote:

Studiostriver wrote:

As for later talk in my humble experience digital clippings are not pleasant at all,very uggly digital distortion which is very unmusical.I could not see use of it personally.

That's why I was careful to point out that I was referring to *internal* clipping (between plugins) and that overloading the input isn't enjoyable. Nor does the master fader like being overloaded.

I sometimes didn`t process all thoughts well,something is lost during my brain translation. :cheer:
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