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TOPIC: Lookng for a specific Dumble tone

Lookng for a specific Dumble tone 11 months 2 days ago #18952

Jerry,
I appreciate that you took out the time to look through your projects for me and I appreciate your beautiful guitar playing. My Gibson Es335 guitar will turn 50 years old this May. The pickups are original but I don't know if their output is that low. Did you use the bridge pickup on Noodles with the Duke? Dancing With Lions has some fizziness to the sound that sounds reminiscent of Scofield or Mike Stern. Noodles has the clear pure sustain and power of Larry Carlton on his album 'On Solid Ground'. It's easily my favorite sound in S-Gear. Even the Robben Ford preset sounds a little crunchy. Installing an earlier version of S-Gear would solve the problem of you being able to check your settings as it would allow them to load up.
Thanks Jerry, - Richard
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Lookng for a specific Dumble tone 11 months 1 day ago #18954

rocketail wrote:

Installing an earlier version of S-Gear would solve the problem of you being able to check your settings as it would allow them to load up.

It would be problematic for Jerry to install the old pre-release version - unfortunately. I can say that the amp algorithms would have been exactly the same as the current Duke amp. So it's just a case of finding the right settings.

Mike
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Lookng for a specific Dumble tone 11 months 1 day ago #18955

Thanks for chipping in Mike!

Richard –the prerelease version did not have the Z control in the convolver, so it was effectively set on zero. I seem to remember increasing the bass and treble controls on the convolver slightly, but I can't remember which speaker impulse I used. Also Mike may correct me, but I don't believe he had implemented the amp drive switch at that time, so I would suggest you set that to off. Using one of the other Dumbley presets, try doing those things as a starting point. I would then probably try turning the presence to zero to begin with and generating the treble from the tone controls. Getting the correct balance between middle and treble controls is important, as is the correct amount of sag.
I hope this helps you!

Jerry
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Lookng for a specific Dumble tone 11 months 19 hours ago #18958

Hi Jerry!

What guitar/s did you use in the aforementioned demo songs?

Inquiring minds would like to know. ;)
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Lookng for a specific Dumble tone 11 months 10 hours ago #18960

Here are some notes written by Jerry. These notes were on the website a while back...

"Noodles With The Duke" - The Duke amp (surprise!) and a Les Paul style humbucker bridge pick up.

"Steely Blue Ray" - All guitars use The Stealer amp with differing settings, speakers and delay. Guitar 1 is a 335 with both pick ups on, Guitar 2 is a Les Paul bridge pick up, Guitar 3 is a Strat neck pick up, Guitar 4 is a Les Paul bridge, and Guitar 5 is (I think) the Les Paul with both pick ups on.

"Stolen Time" - My Strat neck pick up with The Stealer amp and a modulation stereo delay.

"Day Of The Dog" - All three guitars are The Jackal amp with the Les Paul and various pick up, amp, speaker and delay settings.

"Jackal Country" - I'm using an HTS custom guitar with both coil tapped humbuckers on and through The Jackal clean channel.

"Klaptonite" - The Stealer amp and a Les Paul bridge pick up (what else?)

"Thrilling Touch" - The Duke in fine form with the HTS custom guitar and both humbuckers on.

"Dancing with Lions" - The Duke amp again with the Les Paul bridge pick up. This was originally a solo over a loop made from Steely Dan's track Home At Last. I did it after hearing the same track on a forum post being used to demonstrate a Dumble amp, and thought that it would be fun to see if I could find a sound in S-Gear that while obviously different, was just as expressive and dynamic. I was happy with the result, so afterwards I put my own backing track recording around the solo. I also spent some time with the 'raw' guitar pick up recording trying out different plug ins ( Guitar Rig, Amplitube etc.) to see how close I could get. Getting a good basic sound is not too hard with many plug ins these days, but the elusive sense of realism, dynamics and depth is definitely S-Gear's biggest strength in my opinion. I'm really looking forward to Mike's future developments with S-Gear.....
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Lookng for a specific Dumble tone 11 months 4 hours ago #18961

Mike, thinks for reminding me of the magic of Duke and how much I admire Jerry’s playing. I’ve sent a lot of people to listen to his Duke samples.

Any chance you’d ever do a deal with Line 6 to put Duke in a Helix? Man woulld I love that.
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Lookng for a specific Dumble tone 10 months 4 weeks ago #18962

jamsden wrote:

Mike, any chance you’d ever do a deal with Line 6 to put Duke in a Helix? Man woulld I love that.
If the Duke was an actual tube amp, to have it in the Helix ecosystem would be a great idea! But as it's a virtual amp, I fail to see what advantage could bring to Mike to even think of being part of his theoretical biggest contender offerings. Discuss..?
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Lookng for a specific Dumble tone 10 months 4 weeks ago #18963

Well, the business advantages to Mike are certainly unclear. But the advantages to us Helix users and S-Gear fans is that we get S-Gear amp models in a convenient, gig-ready hardware device.

I don't know the technical architecture details of either S-Gear or Helix, but I believe they both build digital amp models out of software representations of electrical components. Contrast with Kemper what uses profiling to do an outside-in model of an amplifier, S-Gear and Helix do inside-out modeling of the actual electrical circuits.

So ignoring DSP limitations, it should be conceptually possible to build a Helix model of Duke. Helix Litigator is an example of a Helix amp that was designed in the digital domain and does not represent any real amp. Duke or any other S-Gear amp could conceptually be done in a similar way.

Helix models are great, don't get me wrong. But similar to what Jerry said about other amp models, it's easy to get something that sounds pretty good out of Helix, but it still misses that feel, dynamics, and over the top tone S-Gear has. As a gigging rig, I love my Helix and HX Stomp, but I also love S-Gear and would really like to have them both in the same box.
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Lookng for a specific Dumble tone 10 months 4 weeks ago #18964

jamsden wrote:

Well, the business advantages to Mike are certainly unclear. But the advantages to us Helix users and S-Gear fans is that we get S-Gear amp models in a convenient, gig-ready hardware device.

I don't know the technical architecture details of either S-Gear or Helix, but I believe they both build digital amp models out of software representations of electrical components. Contrast with Kemper what uses profiling to do an outside-in model of an amplifier, S-Gear and Helix do inside-out modeling of the actual electrical circuits.

So ignoring DSP limitations, it should be conceptually possible to build a Helix model of Duke. Helix Litigator is an example of a Helix amp that was designed in the digital domain and does not represent any real amp. Duke or any other S-Gear amp could conceptually be done in a similar way.

Helix models are great, don't get me wrong. But similar to what Jerry said about other amp models, it's easy to get something that sounds pretty good out of Helix, but it still misses that feel, dynamics, and over the top tone S-Gear has. As a gigging rig, I love my Helix and HX Stomp, but I also love S-Gear and would really like to have them both in the same box.
Well, since you gig with both a laptop and the Helix, wouldn't be a thing to get Cantabile manage the S-Gear instance with a Helix instance, so you have both accessible just a click away? Or, by using Helix Native in the computer and the Helix as an Audio interface? You actually do have the possibility to use'em just as you've described, am I right? Just thinking outloud here… ;)
Last edit: 10 months 4 weeks ago by LtKojak.
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Lookng for a specific Dumble tone 10 months 4 weeks ago #18967

I did indeed have exactly that setup as my backup with Apogee GiO, MainStage, Helix Native and S-Gear. It sounds great. But its too complicated and doesn't have the I/O flexibility that Helix has. I now use HX Stomp as my backup. I still connect Helix to MainStage, but for JamOrigin, but only on one song, and I don't bother that often.

Gigs are somewhat chaotic, especially since I have to run the PA, sing quite a few leads, and all harmonies, and play lead guitar. We try to keep the dancers on the floor and in the club, so there's very little time between songs, and we play 1.5 hour sets, typically only one break. We found that when you take a break 1/2 the people leave. So we don't.

Anything I can do to simplify this and eliminate complexity and issues is most welcome.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Aristoteles D
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Lookng for a specific Dumble tone 10 months 4 weeks ago #18969

Jerry says:
mike wrote:

Getting a good basic sound is not too hard with many plug ins these days, but the elusive sense of realism, dynamics and depth is definitely S-Gear's biggest strength in my opinion.
[/i]
I couldn't agree more. I used S-Gear Duke and Wayfarer as my reference tones to setup my patches in my new HX Stomp yesterday. The HX Stomp only has 6 blocks, so most patches can't afford to have separate Amp and IR blocks, so I used the Amp+Cab models that don't allow you to choose a different cabinet for the amp model.

So it took some experimentation with mic models, mic positioning and high/low cuts to get Helix Litigator to sound close Wayfarer. It was a lot harder to match Duke. But this did provide a nice opportunity to analyze what's different about Litigator and Wayfarer. I'm not sure, but I think there might be two key differences: mid focus and power amp dynamics.

S-Gear amps are a lot more mid focused than the Helix models which tend to have a more traditional Fender mid scoop. This might explain part of the responsiveness of S-Gear. The mid focus keeps the flub out of the bass and the fizz off the top that tends to muddy up responsiveness and articulation in a guitar amp. Mike tends to voice is distortion pretty warm too.

Helix amp models also have presence, sag and bias controls. But S-Gear amps also have a dynamic high-cut control. As the power amp overdrives, presence is decreased (no more gain for negative feedback to work) and high cut increases. This might contribute to a dynamic mid focus by cutting the highs that cause fizz from distortion and keep the amps responsive and warm.

It's that mid focus that helps a guitar cut through a dense mix without having to be too loud. That might also be why the amps feel more responsive, simply because it's easier to hear them even as the performer uses a wider range of dynamics.

There's perhaps one more reason Duke has such magic: it doesn't have that much gain, so its hard to overdo the distortion. I think I remember Jerry also recommending to use the minimum amount of distortion required for the song. Once an amp is distorting, its compressing all the dynamics. You get sustain, but no dynamics. Matt Schofield also talks about setting the controls at the point where they "just start doing their thing" as this result in the most dynamic amp response. Dynamics on the edge of compression might be what we consider feel in an amp.
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