TOPIC: I just can't make the right tones

I just can't make the right tones 3 weeks 3 days ago #24075

hugenoob wrote:

I still haven't had a chance to check these out yet...but I will. Thanks again!

By the way, for anyone interested, here's the song I did using the basic preset (tweaked) that rcrath made for me.

soundcloud.com/user-186908625/halloween-...paign=social_sharing

Hey, I like it. Has a T-Rex vibe for sure. That's a cool preset. Very different than mine. The 10". Speaker cab has a nice "pop" to it. My preset is designed for a bit more crunch, but drive it to whatever works for you. I suppose you could turn the High Cut up a bit, but those Partridge transformers were full range. I also found a Sound City/HiWatt schematic. It has a 3rd ECC83 tube b4 the ECC81 PI tube. I guess it then makes sense to have the Amp Drive switch on in The Stealer. It sounds good to me. Has a smoother overdrive, but more harmonics. It does remind me of my HiWatt with the Sylvania 6CA7 power tubes I put in.
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I just can't make the right tones 3 weeks 3 days ago #24076

GCKelloch wrote:

hugenoob wrote:

I still haven't had a chance to check these out yet...but I will. Thanks again!

By the way, for anyone interested, here's the song I did using the basic preset (tweaked) that rcrath made for me.

soundcloud.com/user-186908625/halloween-...paign=social_sharing

Hey, I like it. Has a T-Rex vibe for sure. That's a cool preset. Very different than mine. The 10". Speaker cab has a nice "pop" to it. My preset is designed for a bit more crunch, but drive it to whatever works for you. I suppose you could turn the High Cut up a bit, but those Partridge transformers were full range. I also found a Sound City/HiWatt schematic. It has a 3rd ECC83 tube b4 the ECC81 PI tube. I guess it then makes sense to have the Amp Drive switch on in The Stealer. It sounds good to me. Has a smoother overdrive, but more harmonics. It does remind me of my HiWatt with the Sylvania 6CA7 power tubes I put in.

Awesome man. You're a wealth of info on tone dialling. Very nice. Also, you can download rcrath's preset in this thread a few posts ago if you're interested in hearing and seeing the sound/ settings he used. Naturally, I tweaked it and tried to fit it in the mix etc. But check out his preset if you wanna hear it sans song/ context. Will try to check out your attachments tonight.
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Last edit: 3 weeks 3 days ago by hugenoob.
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I just can't make the right tones 3 weeks 3 days ago #24077

I got it, and listened to the mp3. When setting my preset, I used the part Bolan played on the upper strings as a reference. There's no reason the Wayfarer can't be used for this type of sound. It's the most versatile amp.

One substantial difference from The Stealer amp is I don't think it has the same bass roll-off on the tone stack. Even with the 60Hz band reduced, there's a very strong sub-bass response in the "rcr bang a gong" preset from the very close mic'd M160. That cab appears to have very strong deep bass response as it is. It does have great punch, but backing that mic off to the Cone 4" position, and to Cap-Edge 3" for the Dyn 57 mic still has good punch without the bloated sub-bass, and the highs will then come from the transient smoothing Dyn 57. Even with the doubled mid-scoop of the tone stack and EQ, it's surprisingly not a mid-scooped sound. Changing the mic positions will somewhat shift the bass and treble emphasis, but you can experiment with the Cab Z, Bass and Treble to counter that. I do have the Treble down lower on The Stealer (patially because the High Cut is at 0). It starts to become shrill with my SC bridge pickups above where it is. Judge for yourself with yours.

Finally, as much as I like the sound coming from the Jensen P10 IR's, the peak is right in the center of the most sensative 3-3.5kHz human hearing range. It is rather hard on the ears with Treble maxed on the Wayfarer, but you don't notice it on the lower rythm part. It does have great crunch, though.

I attached SPL graphs of white noise running through both presets to illustrate what I've pointed out. Notice that the high end (from the S12M20 cab) in my preset has the classic Celestion 3.3kHz dip -- one reason they are such good rock guitar speakers.





P.S. Just a few side notes: You may have noticed the tone is affected by the cab IR Bass & Treble even when they are set flat. I assume that is a slight phasing effect as is true with a real analog EQ. Both the low and high end are a tad clearer with them bypassed -- something to try within a mix. I also tried replacing the Rbn 160 mic at 2" with the Rbn 121 at 4" (where the bass level sounds the same) on the S12L cab. It works at 0" or 1" off-axis, but the midrange is a bit more-scooped, and transients a tad harder. Your call on that.
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I just can't make the right tones 3 weeks 19 hours ago #24089

Phase 3: After more experimenting, it occurred to me that going back to my preference of more power amp/less preamp distortion just sounds better. That means reducing the Gain and increasing the Middle. There's still a substantial mid-dip with the settings I now have. Again, the Bass may be a bit high, but it contributes to the power amp crunch. See the revised attached preset.

I think the scooped mids thing became popular in the 90s when the Mesa Dual Rec came out. Part of that may have been because that amp has no low-end GNFB, and the transformer also caves in when the amp is driven. Scooping the Midrange clears up the power stage. There's no need to do that with The Stealer, but I set the Middle and Gain to get some crunch without it sounding midrange centric.
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I just can't make the right tones 3 weeks 2 hours ago #24091

GCKelloch wrote:

Phase 3: After more experimenting, it occurred to me that going back to my preference of more power amp/less preamp distortion just sounds better. That means reducing the Gain and increasing the Middle. There's still a substantial mid-dip with the settings I now have. Again, the Bass may be a bit high, but it contributes to the power amp crunch. See the revised attached preset.

I think the scooped mids thing became popular in the 90s when the Mesa Dual Rec came out. Part of that may have been because that amp has no low-end GNFB, and the transformer also caves in when the amp is driven. Scooping the Midrange clears up the power stage. There's no need to do that with The Stealer, but I set the Middle and Gain to get some crunch without it sounding midrange centric.

Just tried your ver1 and ver2 presets. They are sweet man. The ver2 one is a little brighter hey? But I tell you for those kind of 2 string power chord blues chug riffs...that's an excellent preset/ sound. Would have worked very well in my song. Very well nailed. I'm impressed. Quite simple. I mean there's not modules everywhere etc. I notice you have the input turned up. That's interesting. Even with my guitar volume on about 7 or 8 it still doesn't overwhelm and become too much.

If you'd be interested...I did this song which I quite like...but the mix is pretty lame and the guitar rhythm tones are pretty lame. If I linked to the song or uploaded it here do you reckon you could make some suggestions on the kind of tone I should lean towards? I mean keeping in mind that I literally have very little idea of where to start. I think if you hear the song you'd intuitively know the kind of tone it needs for the rhythm guitar. Let me know if you are keen.
Last edit: 3 weeks 2 hours ago by hugenoob.
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I just can't make the right tones 2 weeks 6 days ago #24092

I turned up the Treble in V2 cause there's less preamp harmonics. It's more like a "distorted but not distorted" sound. Adjust to taste.

Yeah, post a link. I'll see if I have any ideas.
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I just can't make the right tones 2 weeks 6 days ago #24093

GCKelloch wrote:

I turned up the Treble in V2 cause there's less preamp harmonics. It's more like a "distorted but not distorted" sound. Adjust to taste.

Yeah, post a link. I'll see if I have any ideas.

Ok this is the song: soundcloud.com/user-186908625/building-a...paign=social_sharing

The whole thing didn't really turn out. The mix is a mess and the tones are too muddy and on top of each other. I'm doing the whole song again so that it has more space. I got something closer dialed in last night on The Duke. I should post the preset I made. But still not happy with it. I need it to be somewhat distorted but not harsh at all...and not taking up huge low/ low mid space. Talking about the rhythm guitar section in the intro specifically.

Originally I was thinking to aim for a tone like the rhythm guitar in ACDC Let There Be Rock. But I think that's way too huge a tone for this song.

I'll come back and edit this post with the Duke preset I came up with. Keep in mind though that this preset is still not right I don't think. It's too kind of crunchy and washed out sounding. Sounds really cheap and amateur.

I should add...I'm pretty much always on my Tele on the neck pickup.
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Last edit: 2 weeks 6 days ago by hugenoob.
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I just can't make the right tones 2 weeks 5 days ago #24096

The mix actually doesn't sound bad to me, but almost anything can be improved.

First, I'm curious if your Tele neck pickup has a Brass cover? That rolls the high-end off a lot, but it won't be as dark if it's a low-inductance pickup. Do you know the model or specs?

Yeah, that Duke preset does sound like an old portable AM radio. The OD channel rolls off the highs a lot. It's also less articulate with the Bright switch off. The High Cut up also reduces highs, but not near as much as those other factors You reduced the Bass knob possibly to compensate, but that doesn't add back high-end. I also don't see the need to turn the Bass and Treble cab EQ down on a midrangy cab and the midrangy amp tone. I'd use one of Mike's new 2x12" SA30 cabs if you want to use an AlNiCo Blue, but you might also like the S-12A125 cab. That's a US-voiced early Rock & Roll type speaker. Seems like it fits the song style to me.

Incidentally, I wouldn't reduce the Sag all the way. Some Sag gives the amp a "bigger" sound. I think The default 2.7 is a good starting point for the Duke, but a 50s-era Tweed amp with a tube rectifier would probably have a lot more Sag. Listen to how it affects the attack, you can compensate for the Treble loss by turning down the High Cut.

There's a lot to learn about mixing tracks. That they used to just use a few mics in front of a band and cut a record. All the "mixing" was done with the room choice and instrument placement. I don't want to spend more time on all this, but I did make a revised preset you can experiment with. I turned the Presence up because I just like it like that, and it sounds fine with the low (1.8H) inductance neck SC of my very bright-sounding S-style guitar. I don't think the Fender Tweed guitar amps had much if any GNFB anyway.
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I just can't make the right tones 2 weeks 3 days ago #24103

Thanks man, trying it now.

My Telecaster is all stock. US made standard Tele from about 2016. It's the Olympic White one with the rosewood neck. There's a silver cover thing on the neck pickup. Doesn't look brass. The bridge pickup is bare. See pic attached.

I notice your preset is a pretty clean tone. I'm just trying to give it a slight bit of reverb or grit on it to help the feel when playing. I think it's a good choice to go a cleaner tone because what I've tried (and I've tried quite a few tones) has tended to be way too ill-defined...too muddy...too much distortion making it pretty hard for me to sit with the bass and drums. At the same time, I don't want it so clean it sounds too sterile.

So, I'll see what I can do to get it to feel right.
Last edit: 2 weeks 3 days ago by hugenoob.
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I just can't make the right tones 2 weeks 3 days ago #24105

Ah, that is likely a Twisted Tele neck pickup. It's wound to a Strat pickup spec, and probably a "Nickel" cover. Sounds like a Strat pickup.

Seems like the answer may be the Custom 57 amp. I made a neutral sort of gritty preset with the same speaker cab combo. The SA30B cab is brighter with the Dyn 57 right at center, but it seems more piercing when off-axis a bit. See what you think.
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I just can't make the right tones 2 weeks 3 days ago #24106

GCKelloch wrote:

Ah, that is likely a Twisted Tele neck pickup. It's wound to a Strat pickup spec, and probably a "Nickel" cover. Sounds like a Strat pickup.

Seems like the answer may be the Custom 57 amp. I made a neutral sort of gritty preset with the same speaker cab combo. The SA30B cab is brighter with the Dyn 57 right at center, but it seems more piercing when off-axis a bit. See what you think.

Thank you again. I'll check it out. I've just been trying to sort out tones and still can't get one that feels spot on. I'm having some issues getting a drum sound I'm ok with too. So this song is going to take time I think...just to get all the parts so they feel right. Stuff just doesn't feel bang on yet. And that was the issue with the demo version I linked to before. I kind of just settled on tones (including drums and bass and everything else) that were close enough.

But since I'm trying to do this song again and do it right, I'm prepared to be patient until I get it all feeling right.

I'll check out your new preset when I get a chance. Thanks again!

EDIT: Just checked out your preset. I feel like its a bit crunchy in the high end. I might be leaning toward your cleaner tone preset from before. At the end of the day the cleaner one may fit better into the full mix. I just can't seem to fit the more distorted tones in. They don't sound right. They swamp too much of the drums or something or lack the kind of articulation I think I'm after. The distorted tones are a little easier to play...you have to be a lot more accurate playing the cleaner tones...and in some sections the cleaner tone lacks a bit of the power the distorted tones have especially in the open A and E position blues riff sections.

Anyway...I heard Slash took months and months (I read it in his book) settling on the right tones for Appetite For Destruction. Which shows that even great players need the tone to feel right (of course)...so for me, just a home recording guy...I need as many things in my favour as possible! Especially the tone.

So...leaning toward your clean tone at this point.
Last edit: 2 weeks 3 days ago by hugenoob.
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I just can't make the right tones 2 weeks 17 hours ago #24116

Cool tune! Thanks for sharing, great vintage vibe. I'll try and copy.
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I just can't make the right tones 2 weeks 15 hours ago #24117

hugenoob wrote:

I heard Slash took months and months (I read it in his book) settling on the right tones for Appetite For Destruction. Which shows that even great players need the tone to feel right

G 'n' R had so many internal roadblocks, it's amazing they got anything done. Slash's tones are great, but I don't feel that that amount of time taken to dial in the perfect sound says as much about the sounds themselves as it does Slash's (or G 'n' R's) production issues. In other words, what we're hearing isn't months and months of sculpting the perfect sound, it's months and months of being unable to agree on what great tone is. I know things got worse with Use Your Illusion; legendarily so. I suspect it had less to do with Slash, though.
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I just can't make the right tones 2 weeks 1 hour ago #24118

elambo wrote:

hugenoob wrote:

I heard Slash took months and months (I read it in his book) settling on the right tones for Appetite For Destruction. Which shows that even great players need the tone to feel right

G 'n' R had so many internal roadblocks, it's amazing they got anything done. Slash's tones are great, but I don't feel that that amount of time taken to dial in the perfect sound says as much about the sounds themselves as it does Slash's (or G 'n' R's) production issues. In other words, what we're hearing isn't months and months of sculpting the perfect sound, it's months and months of being unable to agree on what great tone is. I know things got worse with Use Your Illusion; legendarily so. I suspect it had less to do with Slash, though.

I guess you could also factor in Slash's legendary "intake" of "this and that" which could have made decision making and perception difficult.

Anyway...I'm still struggling with the drum sound. I've got Ezdrummer going here with the Blues kit but it's just not quite working. I've got a guitar tone...but again...nothing is feeling 100% right at this stage.
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I just can't make the right tones 2 weeks 1 hour ago #24119

retailhutch wrote:

Cool tune! Thanks for sharing, great vintage vibe. I'll try and copy.

Thanks. I just want to make it better! Like I said...that song (Building a Fire...if that's the one you're talking about) could be sonically so much better. Still kind of a vintage feel...but the drum sound, the guitar rhythm sounds, the bass...these were all chosen without too much thought. I need everything to be more open...more clarity and warmth.

I'm happy with the song. Not so much the vocals but the guitar ideas and playing and all that is fine with me. I just don't like the tones or the way the whole thing comes together.

By the way, if you think you have a good idea for the rhythm guitar tone...let me know! :)

By the way again...if anyone knows a song that kind of sounds like the song I'm trying to do so that I can use it as a reference track...let me know. When I'm trying to think of reference tracks I never have a good idea.
Last edit: 1 week 6 days ago by hugenoob.
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I just can't make the right tones 1 week 6 days ago #24120

Reviewing my Clean preset I determined I don't like the AlNiCo Blue speaker with this sound -- too crisp and not enough bass depth. The two vintage US-voiced speakers actually sound great together. You get the bass depth and pop from the Jensen P10 cab and velvety mids from the Weber 12. I made a new version with that cab combo. I increased the amp section gain with the tone stack and decreased the preamp Gain for a sweeter even to odd harmonic balance, and made some big changes in the amp tweak section. The Sag at 7 seems to give it the right tube rec "viscosity". I changed the OD voicing to Bright because I prefer the High Cut back at 5. I still like the Pres. Frq at 3 to free up the mid dynamics like an old amp without muddying the bass. Hopefully, the aggressive upper-mid character of The Duke can get you what you want. I adore that amp, but one of the BR FREQ settings on the Wayfarer might do it for you. I tried to set it the same as possible for the Amp B slot. See what you think.

You also mentioned wanting a compressor b4 the amp. My favorite free compressor is in my thread here: www.scuffhamamps.com/forum/5-the-lounge/9591-quantum-compressor

Any track is influenced by post-processing. I like to use the free "IVGI2" plugin by Klanghelm. It can cover console and tape effects as well as colored boost pedal duties, and it's not too complicated. I engage the center "Relaxed" button for post-amp processing. Just a little transient attenuation makes a big difference. I set it for only 1~2dB attenuation on the In-Out VU mode with the Asym mix at 7, but "fill your boots". The AirWindows Pressure5 compressor is pretty similar, but it doesn't soft-clip unless the output is pushed. I also rely heavily on the free "TeslaMkIIPro" by VOS for colored boost pedal sounds. I really like the Britsh Console algorithm with just a bit of drive and Bass boost for some Neve-style meat and air-- also good for post-processing. The Transients feature is great-- a common theme with these plugins.

P.S. I recently found this one as well. It doesn't have a transient level, but it does have even and odd harmonic levels, and 4 saturation algorithms:
www.tbproaudio.de/products/gsatplus
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I just can't make the right tones 1 week 6 days ago #24122

GCKelloch wrote:

Reviewing my Clean preset I determined I don't like the AlNiCo Blue speaker with this sound -- too crisp and not enough bass depth.

P.S. I recently found this one as well. It doesn't have a transient level, but it does have even and odd harmonic levels, and 4 saturation algorithms:
www.tbproaudio.de/products/gsatplus

Hey man...thanks again...I just tried your new preset and it's pretty sweet. All I did was tweak the eq controls on the amp slightly here and there, plus I engaged the Boost and turned down the level to bring it back to the approximate level before the boost...and added a spring reverb module at 5%. After S-Gear I have a compressor just levelling things gently. And I think it's pretty good. There's enough bite there that it cuts through...while the low/ low mid is not cluttering up too much with the drums. (I abandoned The Blues kit on Ezdrummer and went with the EZD3 Bright Room kit. This also helped cleaning up the low end...which was getting way overblown with the Blues kit and the guitar. So, yeah, I just recorded the rhythm part with your preset...which is the first 3rd and last 3rd of the song. The middle 3rd is all single note riffs basically down in open position in E A and D. So next step will be to find a nice tone for that. I usually have a lot less trouble finding lead/ lick/ single note riff tones. Likely, I'll end up using your same preset with the tweaks I made and just adding some more weight to it or volume plus a little more Spring verb since the middle 3rd is all single note/ string blues riffs/ licks. I wouldn't want to go from the rhythm guitar first 3rd section to a totally different tone for the middle 3rd. Your tone is as good as I've heard for what I'm trying to do here. It's clean...but a bit dirty...dirty but a bit clean. It worked for the rhythm. Some slight changes and it'll be good to go for the single note stuff.

Anyway...again I really appreciate your skills with tone shaping in S-Gear. Hands down, just stuff that I can't really do. Though with your tips and suggestions I might have better chances of dialing tones in future.

By the way, GSatPlus...yeah I've got that. I like it. I've A/B'd it with StandardClip from Sir Audio and it seems just as good. (as a clipper that is). But yeah, GSat has the saturation etc too.
Last edit: 1 week 6 days ago by hugenoob.
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I just can't make the right tones 1 week 5 days ago #24125

Glad it's coming together for you. StandardClip goes way back. I remember experimenting with the first version b4 the new milenium. The S-curve adjustment is a nice feature. GSat+ adds gain stages instead. That stack harmonics but they can be adjusted. There shouldn't be audible aliasing at 4x OS if it's not driven hard. I actually use the free NickCrowLab "Tube Driver" to somewhat emulate speaker dynamics. I just drive it at 5~10% distortion for some nice fattening. The only caveat is the OS knob has to be reset whenever the plugin is instantiated. The GSat+ "Warm" algorithm with 3 gain stages is almost identical.
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I just can't make the right tones 1 week 1 day ago #24130

GCKelloch wrote:

Glad it's coming together for you. StandardClip goes way back. I remember experimenting with the first version b4 the new milenium. The S-curve adjustment is a nice feature. GSat+ adds gain stages instead. That stack harmonics but they can be adjusted. There shouldn't be audible aliasing at 4x OS if it's not driven hard. I actually use the free NickCrowLab "Tube Driver" to somewhat emulate speaker dynamics. I just drive it at 5~10% distortion for some nice fattening. The only caveat is the OS knob has to be reset whenever the plugin is instantiated. The GSat+ "Warm" algorithm with 3 gain stages is almost identical.

I just finished all the recording for the new version of that song. I'll post it up here when I get around to mixing it. More than happy with how your preset worked. It's a home recording and nowhere near pro, so there's obvious limits to how good I can make it sound. I'm also not super experienced in mixing etc.

I think the new version is way, way better than the version I linked in this thread.
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I just can't make the right tones 5 days 23 hours ago #24134

Here's the new version. A first mix so far. You can hear GCKelloch's preset for the rhythm guitar in the left channel/ left side.

soundcloud.com/user-186908625/building-a...paign=social_sharing
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